«We have faced arrests, torture, and detentions. Yet, despite these hardships, we continue our mission. The struggle of lawyers for human rights and freedom has not been weakened. On the contrary, we are convinced that it is stronger today than ever before, thanks to the values we have built and the sacrifices we have made. Our new colleagues carry this fight for justice forward, and this gives us hope».

Didem Baydam Unsal's smile is disarming. Despite being arrested on terrorism charges solely for being a lawyer, a member of the Progressive Lawyers Association (ÇHD), and enduring the prolonged detention of her husband, Aytaç Unsal—who shared a prison cell with Ebru Timtik, who died after a 238-day hunger strike—she does not lose hope. She still believes that democracy and human rights can prevail in her country, Turkey, and she calls upon the entire international community to help.

«First of all, thank you very much. Before proceeding to answer the questions, I bring you the special greetings and love of dear Aytaç, my husband. I would like to convey that», Didem says to Il Dubbio.

I would like to begin by asking to talk about the struggle of Turkish lawyers: how is the situation now and how it was in the past years?

As you know, as lawyers of both the Progressive Lawyers Association (ÇHD) and the People's Law Bureau, we have always been candidates to be the pioneers of the struggle for justice in our country in one way or another, and we have experienced various detentions, torture and arrests, and we have continued to fulfil this responsibility despite these experiences. We do not think that the struggle of lawyers for rights and freedom has been undermined, on the contrary, we think that this process continues with the values we have created and the prices we have paid, and that our new colleagues continue the struggle for justice, so we are hopeful. For example, the 50th anniversary events of ÇHD have started recently. Therefore, various events and conferences are being organised. One of them was held here in Izmir. It was on the theme of crisis. The crises in our country and in the world were touched upon.

You have spent some time in prison. What was that experience like? What are Turkish prisons like?

It was a different experience. I was a new lawyer of 2.5 years when I was arrested. Prison is not just about being locked up. It means a lot of deprivation and longing. To describe it all, maybe you need to make films and write books. As a lawyer, I lived a captivity next to my clients. I got to know them closely. I experienced the severity of the problems there myself. Therefore, I experienced being their lawyer from the inside. It was a different experience for me as well as for them. I stayed in different prisons, ward type, cell type, high security prisons. I have been in three different prisons because I was referred to exile of transfers. I was actually exiled with my other colleagues because I continued to stand against injustice. Here, too, I continued my legal and democratic struggle with my clients. For example, I can very easily say that political prisoners are discriminated against in practices related to many rights such as the right to conversation, the right to books and publications, the right to health or the right to conditional release. We fought against such discriminations. Of course, criminal detainees and convicts are also subjected to injustice. They either do not realise this or do not know their rights. They are suppressed because they do not know their rights. As political prisoners, we tried to defend their rights too. After all, they were a wider section of the labouring people that we have been defending until today. When it comes to prisons in Turkey, regardless of the type, segregation is an intensifying isolation. The architecture, physical conditions and practices are specially designed to make people cease to be human, I have personally seen this on the spot. Disciplinary punishments are done for this purpose. No visit punishments are given. People are not allowed to meet with their families. Right now, for example, Aytaç has a visit punishment. Or prison directors and administrative units, who are not even lawyers, judge us like a court and prepare untrue statements and reports to prevent our right to conditional release. For example, I served the entire execution of my sentence because it was recorded in the official records on the grounds that I was not in good behaviour for conditional release, that I was not ready to mix with society, that I did not show any remorse for the crime they claimed I committed. I experienced such violations of my rights.

How is Aytaç now? What messages does he send to the outside world?

Aytaç is actually always in good spirits. And resilient. We already know this. After the Death Fast, as we all know, some health problems continued and he had to continue his treatment in prison, and this is as difficult as possible under conditions of isolation. Hospital referrals are a problem. From time to time, certain transfer units takes him to the hospital and doctors carry out examinations in handcuffs, or the doctor is influenced by the intervention of the gendarmerie, that is, external security personnel, and the prisoner is forced to be examined in handcuffs. In such circumstances, Aytaç returned from the hospital without being treated. Or the transfer dates are cancelled on security grounds. Recently, I think about 2 months ago, a high-ranking gendarmerie personnel emerged and threatened Aytaç. While taking Aytaç to the hospital, when there was absolutely no issue, he had personal hostility towards him and made harassing remarks and he shoved Aytaç and said things like, ‘Your place is not in the hospital, it is in the graves, we will put you there too, the time will come’. We started a legal process and filed criminal complaints. Even when our colleagues from the Italian Bar Association came, Aytaç told them about it. They also offered to make some applications on this issue. The process continues. Aytaç is going through such experiences. Aytaç is currently in Edirne F-type prison. There are single and triple cells in F-type prisons. Aytaç is in a three-person cell. He is staying with two of his clients and when he is being taken to hospital, they are trying to take him to hospital separately from his two other clients, the people he has been staying with for 24 hours, the people with whom he shares the same room, even though the hospital transfer of his other two clients is on the same day and time. They are trying to take him in a civilian vehicle. They are also trying to take their clients in a military vehicle. Probably because they think that Aytaç is uplifting their morale. They are trying to separate them. And Aytaç is in a constant state of systematic, psychological torture. He is being treated in a very special way, especially after his recent detention following his death fast for the right to a fair trial. Similarly, when they take Aytaç to the courts, they try to take him alone. When Aytaç refuses to accept this, when his clients oppose this, they are subjected to a series of disciplinary sanctions and investigations. Because of this, he is subjected to a wide range of punishments, including communication punishments, visitation punishments, and punishments lasting up to years. They apply these at certain intervals. There was a mass poisoning case in this prison, not on a personal level, but it was a hot August. The food was spoilt in some way and some people were affected. Aytaç's strength and his body is more sensitive after the Death Fast. Therefore his poisoning was serious. He fainted. His friends appealed to the administration to take him to hospital. The administration did not take Aytaç to hospital even though he was unconscious and fainted. They only make a simple intervention in the ambulance so that it is not recorded that prisoners in prisons are poisoned. Even this they do half-assedly and we do not know how his treatment went. Since that day, since August when he was poisoned, he has not gained weight, he has become very weak again and he does not look very healthy now, even though he tells me that he is fine. Despite all this, Aytaç's moral strength and resilience are high because he believes he is right. He believes in the rightness of his struggle. He knows very well that this is going on inside and outside. He also knows from us. He also follows the agenda. He thinks that the values of our people such as solidarity and mutual aid, being with them in their time of need and defending the truth no matter what, should be clung to tightly. In other words, his call to the outside is generally this, "they want us to break away from the struggle for justice because our struggle is just and they are the ones who are afraid of this just struggle. Being afraid does us no good, but it does us a lot of harm. Hold tightly to the struggle and those who struggle. Because the more their crisis increases, the more they attack." That was his message to you Simona when I told him that I was going to talk to you.

What is the current legal and political landscape for lawyers and human rights defenders in Turkey?

First of all, we can talk about the struggle of our professional organisation, the bar associations. But it is insufficient because there is an effort to protect a certain status and there is no courage here. Of course, when the opposition is strong and the anger of the people spills out onto the streets, this audacity increases periodically, but it does not continue uninterruptedly. However, there are associations of lawyers with legal status, such as the Progressive Lawyers Association and the Association of Lawyers for Freedom. They also have contacts and collaborations with international organisations. Such as ELDH, Lawyers for Lawyers. However, the defence profession in our country has been under threat for a long time. This is also a fact. Just last week, a colleague from ÖHD was arrested right in front of the courtroom after making his defence in court. Of course, our colleagues showed solidarity with him. For this reason, unfortunately, our associations are mostly busy with the campaigns of our arrested colleagues. In other words, being each other's lawyer has become our most basic duty, but thanks to our young colleagues, we continue to work through various commissions. Commissions for the prevention of torture, commissions for prisons, mining and environment commissions. As you know, mine massacres have started to occur frequently in our country. Workers' rights commissions are working and continue their active work. These are valuable works. Panels, symposiums are organised, statements are made to the press. In some way, they are trying to enlighten the people. Many lawyers are under arrest in our country today and the majority of them are under threat, but the struggle always continues. This is of course very encouraging for us.

What message would you like to send to the international community regarding the situation of Aytac and other political prisoners in Turkey?

Artificial agendas are being invented in our country, as they have been and will be in every country that has a crisis of governance. People's minds are kept busy by constantly changing agendas. There are countless injustices. Violations of the rights of political prisoners are almost unheard of due to such intensity. Those in power, who are in a crisis of inability to govern, do everything they can to ensure that political prisoners are forgotten. Because they are the collective memory and conscience of the society. We all know that the most enlightened group are the political prisoners who are currently inside. They are trying to silence the voices of those whose foresight and political attitude are clear. I think it is necessary to be aware of this. They face so many violations of rights, censorship and obstacles, and yet they still try to bring awareness to the society. They are trying to follow the agenda and not to fall behind. No matter how justified, hopeful and resilient they are, they are human beings. They are not machines, they all have feelings. They have longings. They desire to reach the free world they dream of. It is necessary not to leave them alone, to keep all channels of communication open with them. I think it is possible to closely follow their ongoing trials, to ensure that their experiences are heard and known through the press, and to support them in many different ways. Concretely, I can ask you to publicise the upcoming hearings of Aytaç's colleagues, lawyer Seda Şaraldı and lawyer Betül Vangölü Kozağaçlı.

How do you see the future for progressive lawyers and the human rights movement in Turkey?

Lawyers in our country are the ones who are constantly subjected to injustice. Or as the closest witnesses of all kinds of injustice, they are quite responsive. But of course, this is still not enough. The biggest problem of our country is the judiciary. Injustice and the crisis in the judiciary can be reversed with the strongest exposure. I think that this injustice will not end by waiting silently. As the price paid gets heavier, as the threats of arrest increase, and as the number of lawyers who remain outside decreases and the circle narrows, our voices can be muted. But the truth, which we are being made to forget, is still there. That truth is that if we are together, we will be stronger. Our voice will be louder. At that time, they cannot destroy us like dominoes.

What hope remains despite the brutality of the system for real change in justice and human rights in your country?

No difficulty is insurmountable, no sacrifice is beyond question. And it is a fact that the expected days cannot be reached and aspirations cannot be realised without paying the price. For this reason, we are all trying to fight with greater strength with the anger of the oppression inflicted on us. It is important for us to be able to prevent injustice in some way, to put a barrier in front of it, to slow it down. It is important for us to expose an unjust system, to remember that just like capitalism, injustice is its own gravedigger. Because as long as the struggle for justice exists, the longing for justice will be triumphant, injustices will come to an end one way or another. In periods of the most intense degeneration and decay, something will be created anew. Therefore, the struggle will yield results sooner or later. Our belief in this, our hope, the prices we have paid for this cause so far, every incident in which our people have suffered injustice, the values we have gained are a sufficient reason for us to fight. Something will surely change. Yes, with small steps, yes slowly, but surely one day, because if there is struggle, there is always hope. Thank you again for your sensitivity. I am very pleased to meet you. I hope we can meet when you can visit here. I still have a ban on travelling abroad. I will not be able to practise as a lawyer for a few more years. However, I will be able to attend the hearings of my colleagues for support and solidarity.